1 00:00:08,390 --> 00:00:06,550 [Music] 2 00:00:11,190 --> 00:00:08,400 welcome to the skeptic zone 3 00:00:17,130 --> 00:00:11,200 the podcast from australia for science 4 00:00:23,349 --> 00:00:17,140 and reason 5 00:00:25,349 --> 00:00:23,359 [Music] 6 00:00:28,230 --> 00:00:25,359 yes it's the skeptic's own podcast 7 00:00:31,269 --> 00:00:28,240 episode number 663 8 00:00:32,790 --> 00:00:31,279 for the 20th of june 2021 richard 9 00:00:35,110 --> 00:00:32,800 saunders coming to you 10 00:00:35,830 --> 00:00:35,120 from sydney australia coming up on this 11 00:00:38,229 --> 00:00:35,840 week's show 12 00:00:41,910 --> 00:00:38,239 i speak to my old friend susan gerbic 13 00:00:45,590 --> 00:00:41,920 from gorilla skepticism on wikipedia 14 00:00:47,510 --> 00:00:45,600 famous for her psychic stings amongst 15 00:00:48,869 --> 00:00:47,520 all the other good work that she does 16 00:00:52,470 --> 00:00:48,879 she's done it again 17 00:00:55,430 --> 00:00:52,480 another sting another unsuspecting 18 00:00:56,150 --> 00:00:55,440 caught unawares couldn't see it coming 19 00:00:59,590 --> 00:00:56,160 so called 20 00:01:02,709 --> 00:00:59,600 psychic falls prey to susan's 21 00:01:04,310 --> 00:01:02,719 sting which one what's the deal how did 22 00:01:06,070 --> 00:01:04,320 it happen well i'm not psychic 23 00:01:07,990 --> 00:01:06,080 i'll have to listen along with you as i 24 00:01:08,870 --> 00:01:08,000 interview susan gobick at the top of the 25 00:01:12,789 --> 00:01:08,880 show 26 00:01:14,469 --> 00:01:12,799 about operation onion ring 27 00:01:16,870 --> 00:01:14,479 following that it's news from australian 28 00:01:17,910 --> 00:01:16,880 skeptics via the australian skeptic's 29 00:01:20,950 --> 00:01:17,920 newsletter 30 00:01:23,590 --> 00:01:20,960 then the book of tim with tim mendom 31 00:01:24,469 --> 00:01:23,600 as tim reads from those hallowed pages 32 00:01:28,070 --> 00:01:24,479 of the skeptic 33 00:01:29,830 --> 00:01:28,080 magazine in the what goes around segment 34 00:01:31,270 --> 00:01:29,840 then to round off the show we dive once 35 00:01:32,950 --> 00:01:31,280 more into trove 36 00:01:35,030 --> 00:01:32,960 the treasure trove of digitized 37 00:01:37,910 --> 00:01:35,040 newspapers and so on from australia 38 00:01:40,950 --> 00:01:37,920 this week we're looking at references to 39 00:01:44,789 --> 00:01:40,960 the flat earth 40 00:01:46,469 --> 00:01:44,799 now that never seems to go away 41 00:01:47,990 --> 00:01:46,479 a little bit troubling here in sydney 42 00:01:50,550 --> 00:01:48,000 australia the delta 43 00:01:51,429 --> 00:01:50,560 variation of coronavirus is out and 44 00:01:53,749 --> 00:01:51,439 about 45 00:01:55,270 --> 00:01:53,759 in the community we have some new 46 00:01:57,030 --> 00:01:55,280 restrictions just coming in the last 47 00:02:00,069 --> 00:01:57,040 couple of days 48 00:02:03,590 --> 00:02:00,079 people uh requested 49 00:02:05,030 --> 00:02:03,600 no they have been well practically 50 00:02:07,109 --> 00:02:05,040 ordered to wear 51 00:02:08,869 --> 00:02:07,119 masks on public transport it is a 52 00:02:11,190 --> 00:02:08,879 requirement although i was on public 53 00:02:13,430 --> 00:02:11,200 transport just yesterday in sydney 54 00:02:14,229 --> 00:02:13,440 and most of the people do comply but 55 00:02:16,630 --> 00:02:14,239 there's still 56 00:02:18,790 --> 00:02:16,640 some people who somehow didn't get the 57 00:02:20,830 --> 00:02:18,800 memo 58 00:02:22,070 --> 00:02:20,840 but i think that's the case around the 59 00:02:23,510 --> 00:02:22,080 world 60 00:02:26,229 --> 00:02:23,520 but now it's time for me to run 61 00:02:29,030 --> 00:02:26,239 downstairs run downstairs 62 00:02:30,309 --> 00:02:29,040 and since it's winter here in australia 63 00:02:34,790 --> 00:02:30,319 i might have some 64 00:02:38,229 --> 00:02:34,800 mulled wine or maybe irish coffee 65 00:02:40,710 --> 00:02:38,239 at a barbecue sounds good to me 66 00:02:51,670 --> 00:02:40,720 well i do all that i hope you enjoy the 67 00:02:54,560 --> 00:02:51,680 skeptic zone 68 00:03:09,030 --> 00:02:54,570 [Applause] 69 00:03:11,450 --> 00:03:09,040 [Music] 70 00:03:16,869 --> 00:03:11,460 i think we need to think 71 00:03:18,300 --> 00:03:16,879 [Music] 72 00:03:22,229 --> 00:03:18,310 here's susan gerbic 73 00:03:26,149 --> 00:03:24,149 oh you ready outside we're gonna put you 74 00:03:26,630 --> 00:03:26,159 out you're not gonna be able to keep 75 00:03:29,750 --> 00:03:26,640 your 76 00:03:32,309 --> 00:03:29,760 mouth shut that's no way to talk to 77 00:03:34,390 --> 00:03:32,319 me uh susan gerbic all the way from uh 78 00:03:35,670 --> 00:03:34,400 salinas california good to see you again 79 00:03:37,430 --> 00:03:35,680 and actually you're talking 80 00:03:39,430 --> 00:03:37,440 you're talking to one of your cats 81 00:03:41,030 --> 00:03:39,440 aren't you 82 00:03:42,789 --> 00:03:41,040 yes and i think i better let him out 83 00:03:43,589 --> 00:03:42,799 before i continue the conversation 84 00:03:45,910 --> 00:03:43,599 because 85 00:03:47,350 --> 00:03:45,920 he's going to now to get out so let me 86 00:03:49,160 --> 00:03:47,360 let him out 87 00:03:56,470 --> 00:03:49,170 right 88 00:03:58,710 --> 00:03:56,480 [Music] 89 00:04:00,149 --> 00:03:58,720 oh and now all susan's come back the cat 90 00:04:01,589 --> 00:04:00,159 is out of the bag 91 00:04:03,190 --> 00:04:01,599 well the cat is out of the house but 92 00:04:04,869 --> 00:04:03,200 really susan the cat 93 00:04:06,390 --> 00:04:04,879 is out of the bag in another way of 94 00:04:09,910 --> 00:04:06,400 speaking now susan 95 00:04:13,509 --> 00:04:09,920 it is i'd like i like to think of you 96 00:04:17,990 --> 00:04:13,519 as the woman with the sting in her tail 97 00:04:20,069 --> 00:04:18,000 and with a tail of a sting 98 00:04:21,270 --> 00:04:20,079 you have a tail of a sting first of all 99 00:04:24,870 --> 00:04:21,280 first of all 100 00:04:27,110 --> 00:04:24,880 uh how is uh gsow going at the moment 101 00:04:28,790 --> 00:04:27,120 gorilla skepticism on wikipedia 102 00:04:30,150 --> 00:04:28,800 oh i'm glad you asked that question 103 00:04:33,749 --> 00:04:30,160 richard just 104 00:04:37,030 --> 00:04:33,759 yesterday our team hit 90 million 105 00:04:40,150 --> 00:04:37,040 wikipedia page views and 106 00:04:42,469 --> 00:04:40,160 45 of the pages we have written 107 00:04:43,670 --> 00:04:42,479 are not english pages which i'm very 108 00:04:45,670 --> 00:04:43,680 proud of 109 00:04:47,909 --> 00:04:45,680 that's great i mean it's it's staggering 110 00:04:48,870 --> 00:04:47,919 every time you update us on the figures 111 00:04:51,030 --> 00:04:48,880 it just grows 112 00:04:51,990 --> 00:04:51,040 it's like it's almost exponential it's 113 00:04:53,670 --> 00:04:52,000 it's um 114 00:04:56,310 --> 00:04:53,680 quite a testament to the hard work by 115 00:04:58,629 --> 00:04:56,320 you and your worldwide team 116 00:05:00,710 --> 00:04:58,639 but now let's talk about more recent 117 00:05:03,670 --> 00:05:00,720 issues you're famous for 118 00:05:04,790 --> 00:05:03,680 operations stings and adventures all 119 00:05:08,070 --> 00:05:04,800 revolving around 120 00:05:08,950 --> 00:05:08,080 food food i've always wondered about 121 00:05:11,189 --> 00:05:08,960 this 122 00:05:12,469 --> 00:05:11,199 the latest operation i mean the 123 00:05:14,710 --> 00:05:12,479 worldwide 124 00:05:16,070 --> 00:05:14,720 the police have just concluded or in the 125 00:05:17,990 --> 00:05:16,080 process of concluding 126 00:05:19,749 --> 00:05:18,000 operation ironside which you might have 127 00:05:23,270 --> 00:05:19,759 heard about which is a massive sting 128 00:05:25,510 --> 00:05:23,280 worldwide of um criminals that's a nice 129 00:05:28,629 --> 00:05:25,520 name for an operation operation ironside 130 00:05:29,830 --> 00:05:28,639 it's sort of very majestic and romantic 131 00:05:33,350 --> 00:05:29,840 but you've called your 132 00:05:36,469 --> 00:05:33,360 latest operation operation operation 133 00:05:37,909 --> 00:05:36,479 onion ring mark edward came up with the 134 00:05:39,029 --> 00:05:37,919 name and then we had to google to make 135 00:05:39,670 --> 00:05:39,039 sure there was no other kind of 136 00:05:42,150 --> 00:05:39,680 operation 137 00:05:43,749 --> 00:05:42,160 onion ring out there and there isn't but 138 00:05:45,430 --> 00:05:43,759 i think i could help the australian 139 00:05:46,870 --> 00:05:45,440 police and the fbi come up with some 140 00:05:49,110 --> 00:05:46,880 better names i think 141 00:05:50,629 --> 00:05:49,120 i think we need to smile more often and 142 00:05:55,990 --> 00:05:50,639 ironside is kind of 143 00:06:01,670 --> 00:05:58,950 uh musk stick i think that had been much 144 00:06:03,990 --> 00:06:01,680 more interesting people would smile 145 00:06:05,749 --> 00:06:04,000 the australian operation operation 146 00:06:07,670 --> 00:06:05,759 operation tim tam i think that might be 147 00:06:09,510 --> 00:06:07,680 next look out criminals everywhere 148 00:06:12,390 --> 00:06:09,520 now let's talk about operation onion 149 00:06:14,710 --> 00:06:12,400 ring uh a little bit of background 150 00:06:16,230 --> 00:06:14,720 the focus of your operation is somebody 151 00:06:17,749 --> 00:06:16,240 i think we've discussed on the skeptic 152 00:06:20,390 --> 00:06:17,759 zone before 153 00:06:21,590 --> 00:06:20,400 a alleged psychic calls himself a 154 00:06:24,629 --> 00:06:21,600 psychic by the name of 155 00:06:26,550 --> 00:06:24,639 thomas john flanagan i think that is yes 156 00:06:30,629 --> 00:06:26,560 that is him he's known as 157 00:06:32,870 --> 00:06:30,639 john thomas john uh and he is 158 00:06:33,990 --> 00:06:32,880 he has the moniker of the seat belt 159 00:06:37,029 --> 00:06:34,000 psychic just briefly 160 00:06:38,550 --> 00:06:37,039 why did that name came about he had a tv 161 00:06:42,790 --> 00:06:38,560 show a few years ago 162 00:06:46,309 --> 00:06:42,800 one season um with a reality show he was 163 00:06:48,469 --> 00:06:46,319 supposedly some sort of 164 00:06:49,990 --> 00:06:48,479 ride share driver people would get in 165 00:06:51,990 --> 00:06:50,000 the backseat 166 00:06:53,430 --> 00:06:52,000 he would drive him around and then he 167 00:06:55,589 --> 00:06:53,440 would talk to their dead 168 00:06:57,029 --> 00:06:55,599 and the show would edit it down to a few 169 00:06:59,029 --> 00:06:57,039 seconds or a few minutes 170 00:07:01,350 --> 00:06:59,039 and play it back and it looked like he 171 00:07:03,350 --> 00:07:01,360 was really really talking to their dead 172 00:07:05,749 --> 00:07:03,360 and that was the name of the show right 173 00:07:08,230 --> 00:07:05,759 and and you did an investigation of that 174 00:07:09,589 --> 00:07:08,240 and folks i will link to that in uh in 175 00:07:11,589 --> 00:07:09,599 this week's show notes 176 00:07:13,430 --> 00:07:11,599 where you had a very close look at that 177 00:07:16,070 --> 00:07:13,440 whole operation the um 178 00:07:17,110 --> 00:07:16,080 alleged ride chair and psychic 179 00:07:19,350 --> 00:07:17,120 encounters 180 00:07:21,270 --> 00:07:19,360 now more recently though it's it's 181 00:07:21,990 --> 00:07:21,280 probably a bit more of a serious topic 182 00:07:24,870 --> 00:07:22,000 what uh 183 00:07:25,749 --> 00:07:24,880 what operation onion ring is dealing 184 00:07:27,990 --> 00:07:25,759 with because it 185 00:07:28,790 --> 00:07:28,000 involves children yes it was really 186 00:07:32,790 --> 00:07:28,800 really 187 00:07:34,790 --> 00:07:32,800 this for about six months he was going 188 00:07:37,110 --> 00:07:34,800 to be doing a spirit circle 189 00:07:37,990 --> 00:07:37,120 for eight children uh with their 190 00:07:41,430 --> 00:07:38,000 guardian or their 191 00:07:44,070 --> 00:07:41,440 parent um ages five to twelve and 192 00:07:46,469 --> 00:07:44,080 we didn't wanted to go forward we tried 193 00:07:48,309 --> 00:07:46,479 everything that we could think of to get 194 00:07:49,990 --> 00:07:48,319 it canceled we didn't want it to happen 195 00:07:52,150 --> 00:07:50,000 at all it was 196 00:07:53,830 --> 00:07:52,160 i thought it was abusive you know we 197 00:07:55,270 --> 00:07:53,840 thought it was harmful 198 00:07:57,430 --> 00:07:55,280 you know you shouldn't be talking to the 199 00:07:59,430 --> 00:07:57,440 dead of children that just doesn't seem 200 00:08:01,189 --> 00:07:59,440 right even if their parent is there i 201 00:08:03,749 --> 00:08:01,199 i didn't feel like it was a good idea 202 00:08:05,990 --> 00:08:03,759 and people were sympathetic they 203 00:08:08,710 --> 00:08:06,000 they would see it and they'd say 204 00:08:11,670 --> 00:08:08,720 absolutely this has got to be cancelled 205 00:08:13,350 --> 00:08:11,680 but nobody had the power to cancel it 206 00:08:16,550 --> 00:08:13,360 there was no 207 00:08:18,469 --> 00:08:16,560 we couldn't shame him we couldn't uh 208 00:08:20,469 --> 00:08:18,479 get uh you know how are you gonna get 209 00:08:22,710 --> 00:08:20,479 zoomed to cancel something like that and 210 00:08:24,629 --> 00:08:22,720 tried the pay method where he was 211 00:08:26,710 --> 00:08:24,639 receiving the funds 212 00:08:28,950 --> 00:08:26,720 that didn't get us anywhere we tried the 213 00:08:31,189 --> 00:08:28,960 media like the mainstream media 214 00:08:32,870 --> 00:08:31,199 couldn't get the attention of that just 215 00:08:34,389 --> 00:08:32,880 uh and we wanted something outside of 216 00:08:36,870 --> 00:08:34,399 the skeptic community and we 217 00:08:37,990 --> 00:08:36,880 and stephen navella dr steven novella 218 00:08:39,750 --> 00:08:38,000 from the 219 00:08:41,350 --> 00:08:39,760 skeptics guide to the universe he wrote 220 00:08:43,909 --> 00:08:41,360 a scathing 221 00:08:46,230 --> 00:08:43,919 article about it and thomas john just 222 00:08:47,590 --> 00:08:46,240 responded saying he's crazy 223 00:08:49,829 --> 00:08:47,600 yeah there's nothing wrong with speaking 224 00:08:50,710 --> 00:08:49,839 to children that's basically what he 225 00:08:52,870 --> 00:08:50,720 said 226 00:08:55,030 --> 00:08:52,880 so zoom all right so it's not like you 227 00:08:55,910 --> 00:08:55,040 could approach a certain network cable 228 00:08:57,750 --> 00:08:55,920 or one of the 229 00:09:01,350 --> 00:08:57,760 broadcast networks and say look this is 230 00:09:03,829 --> 00:09:01,360 not a really good idea this was a zoom 231 00:09:05,190 --> 00:09:03,839 phenomenon yeah and that was part of the 232 00:09:06,949 --> 00:09:05,200 problem because 233 00:09:08,470 --> 00:09:06,959 if it was happening in a certain 234 00:09:10,949 --> 00:09:08,480 location 235 00:09:13,590 --> 00:09:10,959 um a state or a city then we could 236 00:09:15,990 --> 00:09:13,600 approach that state or that city is 237 00:09:16,790 --> 00:09:16,000 the media of that area and see if we can 238 00:09:20,070 --> 00:09:16,800 get that 239 00:09:21,190 --> 00:09:20,080 get them to get cancelled or if it was 240 00:09:24,070 --> 00:09:21,200 happening 241 00:09:26,070 --> 00:09:24,080 in a venue well then maybe we could get 242 00:09:27,829 --> 00:09:26,080 that canceled but zoom 243 00:09:30,070 --> 00:09:27,839 it wasn't working and we had people 244 00:09:33,030 --> 00:09:30,080 there was people from all over 245 00:09:34,389 --> 00:09:33,040 okay so give given that so you decided 246 00:09:35,110 --> 00:09:34,399 that there was something had to be done 247 00:09:37,910 --> 00:09:35,120 because 248 00:09:39,670 --> 00:09:37,920 i agree with you it's outrageous to 249 00:09:41,269 --> 00:09:39,680 basically target children and maybe 250 00:09:44,870 --> 00:09:41,279 their vulnerable parents 251 00:09:47,750 --> 00:09:44,880 in this this operation this 252 00:09:49,590 --> 00:09:47,760 business venture that he's doing now i 253 00:09:50,389 --> 00:09:49,600 don't want to give too much away folks 254 00:09:52,949 --> 00:09:50,399 because 255 00:09:53,590 --> 00:09:52,959 there is an extensive write-up susan's 256 00:09:56,389 --> 00:09:53,600 done 257 00:09:57,829 --> 00:09:56,399 which is posted online and the link is 258 00:09:59,350 --> 00:09:57,839 in the show notes and that's where we 259 00:10:00,949 --> 00:09:59,360 want you to go 260 00:10:02,470 --> 00:10:00,959 but maybe susan you can give us an 261 00:10:05,350 --> 00:10:02,480 overview of 262 00:10:07,269 --> 00:10:05,360 the events that that transpired but we 263 00:10:10,150 --> 00:10:07,279 can leave it to our listeners to 264 00:10:10,550 --> 00:10:10,160 read the full uh account on the website 265 00:10:13,750 --> 00:10:10,560 right 266 00:10:17,829 --> 00:10:13,760 i i will say that 267 00:10:19,430 --> 00:10:17,839 we decided to finally go and attend 268 00:10:21,350 --> 00:10:19,440 because as you said we 269 00:10:23,269 --> 00:10:21,360 we couldn't cancel it so we wanted to 270 00:10:26,710 --> 00:10:23,279 see what was going to happen 271 00:10:29,829 --> 00:10:26,720 and we managed to infiltrate infiltrate 272 00:10:30,790 --> 00:10:29,839 we managed to infiltrate and become part 273 00:10:35,350 --> 00:10:30,800 of the 274 00:10:38,949 --> 00:10:35,360 eight other 275 00:10:40,790 --> 00:10:38,959 sitters yeah and their parents and 276 00:10:42,470 --> 00:10:40,800 it's all we were able to record it 277 00:10:44,870 --> 00:10:42,480 everything was recorded so 278 00:10:46,949 --> 00:10:44,880 you know we were able to look at 279 00:10:47,590 --> 00:10:46,959 everything in detail and transcribe it 280 00:10:54,389 --> 00:10:47,600 and 281 00:10:58,710 --> 00:10:54,399 what i can say is that it was 282 00:11:01,269 --> 00:10:58,720 pretty bad i was not happy 283 00:11:02,949 --> 00:11:01,279 as a mother myself what the things he 284 00:11:06,470 --> 00:11:02,959 said to the children 285 00:11:08,550 --> 00:11:06,480 um i mean it wasn't something blatantly 286 00:11:09,750 --> 00:11:08,560 a lot of encouragement of their psychic 287 00:11:12,630 --> 00:11:09,760 gifts 288 00:11:14,389 --> 00:11:12,640 and that like there are dead people 289 00:11:15,910 --> 00:11:14,399 around them uh 290 00:11:17,509 --> 00:11:15,920 you could tell that almost all of these 291 00:11:19,509 --> 00:11:17,519 people and they were all mothers 292 00:11:21,750 --> 00:11:19,519 they were all women every single one of 293 00:11:23,509 --> 00:11:21,760 them were 294 00:11:25,030 --> 00:11:23,519 kind of taking their children to these 295 00:11:27,670 --> 00:11:25,040 events often right 296 00:11:29,509 --> 00:11:27,680 because they would say things like in 297 00:11:33,190 --> 00:11:29,519 past readings we've had and 298 00:11:34,949 --> 00:11:33,200 and so on um but there's a twist 299 00:11:36,870 --> 00:11:34,959 there's several twists at the article 300 00:11:37,910 --> 00:11:36,880 and i in the way i wrote it in the 301 00:11:39,990 --> 00:11:37,920 article which is long 302 00:11:43,110 --> 00:11:40,000 and i do apologize for that but i think 303 00:11:45,030 --> 00:11:43,120 what i was trying to do i cut out a lot 304 00:11:46,550 --> 00:11:45,040 because there was so much that i had to 305 00:11:49,190 --> 00:11:46,560 take out that wasn't 306 00:11:51,190 --> 00:11:49,200 extremely level but i wanted to leave it 307 00:11:53,750 --> 00:11:51,200 in because i was thinking 308 00:11:54,389 --> 00:11:53,760 that if one of these children or the 309 00:11:56,870 --> 00:11:54,399 mothers 310 00:11:57,509 --> 00:11:56,880 stumbles across this article in the 311 00:12:00,790 --> 00:11:57,519 future 312 00:12:03,590 --> 00:12:00,800 which i'm hoping they do they will see 313 00:12:04,470 --> 00:12:03,600 the reading from the perspective of our 314 00:12:07,430 --> 00:12:04,480 community 315 00:12:09,430 --> 00:12:07,440 and see how a lot of it was just hot 316 00:12:11,910 --> 00:12:09,440 reading or cold reading 101 317 00:12:13,110 --> 00:12:11,920 it was just the tropes you know i'm 318 00:12:16,470 --> 00:12:13,120 getting signs of 319 00:12:19,750 --> 00:12:16,480 music and coins and butterflies and 320 00:12:22,150 --> 00:12:19,760 oh really it was really really difficult 321 00:12:23,430 --> 00:12:22,160 i was embarrassed for the psychic it was 322 00:12:25,750 --> 00:12:23,440 so bad 323 00:12:27,910 --> 00:12:25,760 it was that obvious it was that hard at 324 00:12:30,389 --> 00:12:27,920 some points and there was hot reading 325 00:12:31,110 --> 00:12:30,399 but um so what i do in the article is i 326 00:12:34,389 --> 00:12:31,120 sum 327 00:12:36,389 --> 00:12:34,399 up the eight readings and 328 00:12:38,710 --> 00:12:36,399 they're you know maybe a few paragraphs 329 00:12:40,470 --> 00:12:38,720 long of what happened and i'm working 330 00:12:41,430 --> 00:12:40,480 off the transcriptions as well as the 331 00:12:44,790 --> 00:12:41,440 video so it's 332 00:12:46,629 --> 00:12:44,800 it's yeah concise uh the video itself 333 00:12:49,750 --> 00:12:46,639 was two and a half hours 334 00:12:50,150 --> 00:12:49,760 so then i go back and then i talk about 335 00:12:52,069 --> 00:12:50,160 what 336 00:12:53,910 --> 00:12:52,079 our team the girl of skeptics and about 337 00:12:55,910 --> 00:12:53,920 we evaluated whatever it was that he 338 00:12:57,509 --> 00:12:55,920 told emblem and so i thumb that up and 339 00:12:59,590 --> 00:12:57,519 then there's some twists 340 00:13:01,190 --> 00:12:59,600 and i think that would be what is really 341 00:13:03,670 --> 00:13:01,200 going to be interesting to 342 00:13:06,069 --> 00:13:03,680 uh the skeptic's own audience but to get 343 00:13:09,110 --> 00:13:06,079 through to get to the twists 344 00:13:10,870 --> 00:13:09,120 i and and the final outcomes i think 345 00:13:13,509 --> 00:13:10,880 you're going to have to uh 346 00:13:14,470 --> 00:13:13,519 go through and and read it as if you 347 00:13:18,069 --> 00:13:14,480 were 348 00:13:21,110 --> 00:13:18,079 one of the sitters 349 00:13:22,710 --> 00:13:21,120 i think i think it's educational oh it 350 00:13:24,150 --> 00:13:22,720 certainly is it certainly is it's a 351 00:13:26,389 --> 00:13:24,160 fascinating read because 352 00:13:27,269 --> 00:13:26,399 you start off with a little bit about uh 353 00:13:28,710 --> 00:13:27,279 thomas john 354 00:13:30,949 --> 00:13:28,720 and the previous things like the 355 00:13:32,470 --> 00:13:30,959 rideshare the article folks which i'll 356 00:13:34,069 --> 00:13:32,480 link to in the show notes of course in 357 00:13:36,470 --> 00:13:34,079 which we would like you to read 358 00:13:38,069 --> 00:13:36,480 it's a fascinating read is over at 359 00:13:40,470 --> 00:13:38,079 skeptical inquirer 360 00:13:41,509 --> 00:13:40,480 and it's skeptically inquiry.org 361 00:13:44,629 --> 00:13:41,519 exclusive 362 00:13:47,430 --> 00:13:44,639 slash operation hyphen onion hyphen ring 363 00:13:49,110 --> 00:13:47,440 hyphen thomas hyphen john hyphen and 364 00:13:51,990 --> 00:13:49,120 hyphen the 365 00:13:53,350 --> 00:13:52,000 children hyphen children so it's much 366 00:13:55,990 --> 00:13:53,360 better if you just click the link or you 367 00:13:59,030 --> 00:13:56,000 just can google operation onion ring 368 00:14:00,629 --> 00:13:59,040 and skeptical inquiry will certainly get 369 00:14:02,230 --> 00:14:00,639 you to that page 370 00:14:04,949 --> 00:14:02,240 the whole idea is we don't want to we 371 00:14:08,310 --> 00:14:04,959 don't want to reveal the names of the 372 00:14:10,069 --> 00:14:08,320 other the sitters and by way of 373 00:14:11,509 --> 00:14:10,079 yeah the children as well because i mean 374 00:14:13,590 --> 00:14:11,519 they're telling private 375 00:14:14,870 --> 00:14:13,600 private information and and the children 376 00:14:18,069 --> 00:14:14,880 want to hear from their 377 00:14:21,590 --> 00:14:18,079 mummies and daddies yeah so 378 00:14:21,990 --> 00:14:21,600 these are grieving children yeah well of 379 00:14:27,110 --> 00:14:22,000 course 380 00:14:28,310 --> 00:14:27,120 you respect that in the article itself 381 00:14:30,470 --> 00:14:28,320 you do see um 382 00:14:31,350 --> 00:14:30,480 artistic impressions of the screenshots 383 00:14:33,750 --> 00:14:31,360 i can say that 384 00:14:35,670 --> 00:14:33,760 but it really doesn't i identify anybody 385 00:14:37,750 --> 00:14:35,680 i was i was very very 386 00:14:39,509 --> 00:14:37,760 you know as a photographer i am really 387 00:14:40,389 --> 00:14:39,519 interested in having something visual on 388 00:14:44,389 --> 00:14:40,399 these articles 389 00:14:46,550 --> 00:14:44,399 and so i just did screenshots of the 390 00:14:48,629 --> 00:14:46,560 various points during the zoom session 391 00:14:50,629 --> 00:14:48,639 and then i blurred out 392 00:14:52,069 --> 00:14:50,639 the uh names on the zoom screen and i 393 00:14:53,590 --> 00:14:52,079 kind of blurred out some of the people's 394 00:14:54,870 --> 00:14:53,600 faces a little bit and then put them 395 00:14:57,030 --> 00:14:54,880 through some software 396 00:14:58,550 --> 00:14:57,040 that made them look like pencil drawings 397 00:15:00,550 --> 00:14:58,560 and i 398 00:15:02,629 --> 00:15:00,560 think you cannot recognize the people i 399 00:15:04,470 --> 00:15:02,639 didn't blur out thomas john but 400 00:15:05,750 --> 00:15:04,480 um for the most part you will not be 401 00:15:07,110 --> 00:15:05,760 able to know who these people are but i 402 00:15:09,430 --> 00:15:07,120 think it gives you the mood 403 00:15:11,030 --> 00:15:09,440 of what was happening you can see them 404 00:15:13,430 --> 00:15:11,040 like wiping their eyes 405 00:15:14,949 --> 00:15:13,440 you can see them looking bored different 406 00:15:18,629 --> 00:15:14,959 things you can see 407 00:15:20,069 --> 00:15:18,639 in the drawings they look like drawings 408 00:15:21,670 --> 00:15:20,079 they do look like drawings and of course 409 00:15:22,150 --> 00:15:21,680 it's not that important that we should 410 00:15:23,750 --> 00:15:22,160 know 411 00:15:26,389 --> 00:15:23,760 the names of everybody involved that's 412 00:15:28,710 --> 00:15:26,399 that's not really that relevant to the 413 00:15:29,990 --> 00:15:28,720 the main core of what you're trying to 414 00:15:31,509 --> 00:15:30,000 get at folks again 415 00:15:33,670 --> 00:15:31,519 i'll link to that in the show notes 416 00:15:34,389 --> 00:15:33,680 please read susan's report about 417 00:15:37,030 --> 00:15:34,399 operation 418 00:15:37,670 --> 00:15:37,040 onion ring it's quite amazing it's yet 419 00:15:39,509 --> 00:15:37,680 another 420 00:15:41,829 --> 00:15:39,519 feather in your cap susan let me see now 421 00:15:45,749 --> 00:15:41,839 i think the next one should be operation 422 00:15:49,110 --> 00:15:45,759 canadian maple syrup just uh to make our 423 00:15:51,189 --> 00:15:49,120 our friend uh adrian happy i do want to 424 00:15:52,310 --> 00:15:51,199 say that this is the exclusive interview 425 00:15:55,110 --> 00:15:52,320 that i'm giving 426 00:15:55,430 --> 00:15:55,120 to skeptics on first well thank you very 427 00:15:57,829 --> 00:15:55,440 much 428 00:15:59,269 --> 00:15:57,839 i'm sure the skeptic zone audience 429 00:16:02,069 --> 00:15:59,279 appreciate that 430 00:16:02,470 --> 00:16:02,079 susan great to see you uh looking at you 431 00:16:04,150 --> 00:16:02,480 here 432 00:16:06,069 --> 00:16:04,160 through the the wonders of the internet 433 00:16:07,910 --> 00:16:06,079 so i can't wait till this 434 00:16:09,670 --> 00:16:07,920 nonsense is over and i can come over and 435 00:16:10,550 --> 00:16:09,680 visit you in salinas i've had my first 436 00:16:12,949 --> 00:16:10,560 shot i'm 437 00:16:14,790 --> 00:16:12,959 i think about nine weeks or eight weeks 438 00:16:15,670 --> 00:16:14,800 away from my second shot and after that 439 00:16:17,990 --> 00:16:15,680 well 440 00:16:20,069 --> 00:16:18,000 that's crazy we're i'm fully vaccinated 441 00:16:21,749 --> 00:16:20,079 as and are most of my friends and we're 442 00:16:21,990 --> 00:16:21,759 starting to travel and go see each other 443 00:16:29,509 --> 00:16:22,000 in 444 00:16:30,069 --> 00:16:29,519 uh have parties and game nights and go 445 00:16:32,949 --> 00:16:30,079 to 446 00:16:35,350 --> 00:16:32,959 magic shows and it's it's really 447 00:16:37,509 --> 00:16:35,360 exciting as bad as america has been 448 00:16:38,949 --> 00:16:37,519 we are thrilled to be one of the first 449 00:16:42,069 --> 00:16:38,959 to be 450 00:16:44,230 --> 00:16:42,079 kind of done that's great i'm i'm i'm 451 00:16:46,389 --> 00:16:44,240 pleased to hear that because here in 452 00:16:48,069 --> 00:16:46,399 sydney we're pretty free and open to 453 00:16:48,470 --> 00:16:48,079 wander about and do everything there's 454 00:16:51,590 --> 00:16:48,480 no 455 00:16:52,230 --> 00:16:51,600 real sense of much social distancing 456 00:16:55,110 --> 00:16:52,240 anymore and 457 00:16:56,550 --> 00:16:55,120 masks aren't required in most situations 458 00:16:58,470 --> 00:16:56,560 we know that can change quickly 459 00:16:59,990 --> 00:16:58,480 but at the moment it's uh it's like that 460 00:17:02,790 --> 00:17:00,000 except we just can't go and visit 461 00:17:06,949 --> 00:17:04,870 well the power of the power of the 462 00:17:09,270 --> 00:17:06,959 internet has made it possible and 463 00:17:10,630 --> 00:17:09,280 i sure have been busy this lockdown let 464 00:17:13,669 --> 00:17:10,640 me tell you this has been 465 00:17:14,309 --> 00:17:13,679 i've made very good use of my time i 466 00:17:18,949 --> 00:17:14,319 agree 467 00:17:19,990 --> 00:17:18,959 later on today you'll be celebrating one 468 00:17:23,829 --> 00:17:20,000 year of online 469 00:17:26,069 --> 00:17:23,839 weekly trivia yes we will today is the 470 00:17:27,909 --> 00:17:26,079 one year of trivia social trivia 471 00:17:29,750 --> 00:17:27,919 thursday nights it's uh 472 00:17:31,430 --> 00:17:29,760 would be a friday morning i guess in 473 00:17:32,870 --> 00:17:31,440 australia if people want to join me 474 00:17:35,190 --> 00:17:32,880 you can find all the information about 475 00:17:37,029 --> 00:17:35,200 that on facebook and we have about 30 476 00:17:39,750 --> 00:17:37,039 people who've shown up for 477 00:17:41,270 --> 00:17:39,760 a year we've never missed a week well 478 00:17:43,590 --> 00:17:41,280 for everything you do susan 479 00:17:44,710 --> 00:17:43,600 once again thank you very much and folks 480 00:17:46,390 --> 00:17:44,720 last plea 481 00:17:47,990 --> 00:17:46,400 please read the account over at 482 00:17:49,830 --> 00:17:48,000 skeptical inquirer 483 00:17:51,750 --> 00:17:49,840 susan go back for now all the way in 484 00:17:52,470 --> 00:17:51,760 beautiful salinas which i miss thank you 485 00:18:02,840 --> 00:17:52,480 very much 486 00:18:08,870 --> 00:18:06,070 [Music] 487 00:18:10,150 --> 00:18:08,880 hi there i'm abhijeet and i host the 488 00:18:13,510 --> 00:18:10,160 rationable podcast 489 00:18:15,270 --> 00:18:13,520 on be rational.com every couple of weeks 490 00:18:15,990 --> 00:18:15,280 i science the hell out of alternative 491 00:18:18,549 --> 00:18:16,000 medicines 492 00:18:19,430 --> 00:18:18,559 health and nutrition fads social media 493 00:18:22,789 --> 00:18:19,440 forwards 494 00:18:25,190 --> 00:18:22,799 science news and lots more of course 495 00:18:26,070 --> 00:18:25,200 you can find all of my articles podcast 496 00:18:31,350 --> 00:18:26,080 episodes and 497 00:18:36,460 --> 00:18:31,360 lots more on www.berationable.com 498 00:18:36,470 --> 00:18:40,830 [Music] 499 00:18:40,840 --> 00:18:44,870 rationable 500 00:18:51,110 --> 00:18:48,580 and now a reading from the book of tim 501 00:18:57,550 --> 00:18:51,120 [Music] 502 00:18:58,950 --> 00:18:57,560 with tim menden 503 00:19:01,590 --> 00:18:58,960 [Music] 504 00:19:03,350 --> 00:19:01,600 hi my name is tim menden i'm the editor 505 00:19:04,310 --> 00:19:03,360 of australian skeptics magazine the 506 00:19:05,990 --> 00:19:04,320 skeptic 507 00:19:06,810 --> 00:19:06,000 and this one is for all our friends in 508 00:19:08,070 --> 00:19:06,820 wala bada 509 00:19:09,350 --> 00:19:08,080 [Music] 510 00:19:12,150 --> 00:19:09,360 today i'm reading from the skeptic 511 00:19:14,950 --> 00:19:12,160 magazine september 2015 512 00:19:15,909 --> 00:19:14,960 which is volume 35 number three which 513 00:19:19,350 --> 00:19:15,919 you can download 514 00:19:22,710 --> 00:19:19,360 from our website skeptics.com 515 00:19:23,510 --> 00:19:22,720 for free today i'm reading from what 516 00:19:24,950 --> 00:19:23,520 goes around 517 00:19:26,870 --> 00:19:24,960 which is the regular column in the 518 00:19:28,549 --> 00:19:26,880 magazine which is based on the premise 519 00:19:29,830 --> 00:19:28,559 that you can start off with a fact or an 520 00:19:31,590 --> 00:19:29,840 anecdote or whatever 521 00:19:33,029 --> 00:19:31,600 and by connections you can work your way 522 00:19:33,830 --> 00:19:33,039 all the way around to where you started 523 00:19:35,669 --> 00:19:33,840 from 524 00:19:37,510 --> 00:19:35,679 giving you the almost inevitable 525 00:19:38,390 --> 00:19:37,520 realization that all knowledge is 526 00:19:41,110 --> 00:19:38,400 connected 527 00:19:42,789 --> 00:19:41,120 and connectable and this time we're 528 00:19:46,230 --> 00:19:42,799 looking at a 529 00:19:52,630 --> 00:19:46,240 series of events about seances sites 530 00:19:54,390 --> 00:19:52,640 sticks and sex 531 00:19:56,470 --> 00:19:54,400 and we start off with the ghost club 532 00:19:57,909 --> 00:19:56,480 which is a paranormal investigation and 533 00:20:01,029 --> 00:19:57,919 research organization 534 00:20:02,789 --> 00:20:01,039 founded in london in 1862 535 00:20:06,070 --> 00:20:02,799 its prime interest is paranormal 536 00:20:08,470 --> 00:20:06,080 phenomena such as ghosts and hauntings 537 00:20:10,149 --> 00:20:08,480 largely from a believer's point of view 538 00:20:12,310 --> 00:20:10,159 it is said to be the oldest such 539 00:20:14,149 --> 00:20:12,320 organization in the world 540 00:20:16,390 --> 00:20:14,159 though the more scientifically focused 541 00:20:18,789 --> 00:20:16,400 society for psychical research 542 00:20:20,630 --> 00:20:18,799 was set up at about the same time the 543 00:20:23,350 --> 00:20:20,640 ghost club dissolved 544 00:20:25,190 --> 00:20:23,360 like a phantom in the 1870s following 545 00:20:28,549 --> 00:20:25,200 the death of a key member 546 00:20:30,070 --> 00:20:28,559 but was revived in 1882 its members have 547 00:20:32,950 --> 00:20:30,080 included charles babbage 548 00:20:33,669 --> 00:20:32,960 arthur conan doyle arthur kessler donald 549 00:20:36,470 --> 00:20:33,679 campbell 550 00:20:37,190 --> 00:20:36,480 sir julian huxley w b yates dennis 551 00:20:40,549 --> 00:20:37,200 wheatley 552 00:20:43,830 --> 00:20:40,559 peter cushing and frederick bond 553 00:20:45,510 --> 00:20:43,840 frederick bly bond who was born in 1864 554 00:20:47,830 --> 00:20:45,520 and died in 1945 555 00:20:48,789 --> 00:20:47,840 was an english architect illustrator 556 00:20:51,270 --> 00:20:48,799 archaeologist 557 00:20:53,590 --> 00:20:51,280 and psychical researcher he joined the 558 00:20:55,909 --> 00:20:53,600 ghost club in 1925 559 00:20:58,390 --> 00:20:55,919 as well as the freemasons in 1889 the 560 00:21:00,350 --> 00:20:58,400 theosophical society in 1895 561 00:21:01,669 --> 00:21:00,360 the society for cyclical research in 562 00:21:04,870 --> 00:21:01,679 1902 563 00:21:07,270 --> 00:21:04,880 and their societies rosa christiana 564 00:21:08,230 --> 00:21:07,280 in anglia in 1909 as the rose of 565 00:21:10,630 --> 00:21:08,240 christians 566 00:21:13,029 --> 00:21:10,640 in 1908 the church of england appointed 567 00:21:15,029 --> 00:21:13,039 him as director of excavations at 568 00:21:17,110 --> 00:21:15,039 glastonbury abbey 569 00:21:19,190 --> 00:21:17,120 at the site he rediscovered the nature 570 00:21:21,750 --> 00:21:19,200 and dimensions of a number of buildings 571 00:21:23,669 --> 00:21:21,760 that had occupied the site he claimed to 572 00:21:26,710 --> 00:21:23,679 use spirit guides and psychic 573 00:21:28,549 --> 00:21:26,720 archaeology to find the ruins because of 574 00:21:30,230 --> 00:21:28,559 his obsession with spiritualism 575 00:21:32,470 --> 00:21:30,240 he was dismissed from his glastonbury 576 00:21:33,830 --> 00:21:32,480 position in 1921. 577 00:21:36,230 --> 00:21:33,840 apparently the church of england was not 578 00:21:37,750 --> 00:21:36,240 too keen on that 579 00:21:39,350 --> 00:21:37,760 now glastonbury itself in which you've 580 00:21:41,510 --> 00:21:39,360 ever been there's a place in england 581 00:21:42,630 --> 00:21:41,520 has links with legend concerning joseph 582 00:21:44,630 --> 00:21:42,640 of arimathea 583 00:21:46,950 --> 00:21:44,640 and the holy grail not to mention king 584 00:21:47,909 --> 00:21:46,960 arthur according to the 13th century 585 00:21:51,110 --> 00:21:47,919 french poet 586 00:21:52,070 --> 00:21:51,120 robert de boro joseph captured jesus 587 00:21:54,789 --> 00:21:52,080 blood in the cup 588 00:21:56,950 --> 00:21:54,799 the grail which was brought to britain 589 00:22:00,390 --> 00:21:56,960 on arriving at glastonbury by boat 590 00:22:02,310 --> 00:22:00,400 over the flooded somerset levels joseph 591 00:22:03,750 --> 00:22:02,320 stuck his staff into the ground and 592 00:22:06,549 --> 00:22:03,760 flowered miraculously 593 00:22:08,070 --> 00:22:06,559 into the glastonbury thorn this is said 594 00:22:11,190 --> 00:22:08,080 to explain a hybrid 595 00:22:13,590 --> 00:22:11,200 contagious monongina 596 00:22:15,190 --> 00:22:13,600 or hawthorne tree that only grows within 597 00:22:16,789 --> 00:22:15,200 a few miles of glastonbury and which 598 00:22:18,630 --> 00:22:16,799 flowers twice annually 599 00:22:20,950 --> 00:22:18,640 once in spring and again around 600 00:22:22,710 --> 00:22:20,960 christmas time depending on the weather 601 00:22:24,230 --> 00:22:22,720 though at various times it has been 602 00:22:26,549 --> 00:22:24,240 vandalized 603 00:22:28,630 --> 00:22:26,559 the legend also says that as a child 604 00:22:29,750 --> 00:22:28,640 jesus had visited glastonbury along with 605 00:22:32,470 --> 00:22:29,760 joseph 606 00:22:35,909 --> 00:22:32,480 the poet painter and printmaker william 607 00:22:37,430 --> 00:22:35,919 blake 1757-1827 608 00:22:39,029 --> 00:22:37,440 mentioned the legend in a poem that 609 00:22:41,990 --> 00:22:39,039 became the popular hymn 610 00:22:43,909 --> 00:22:42,000 jerusalem and the lines are and did 611 00:22:46,549 --> 00:22:43,919 those feet in ancient time 612 00:22:48,549 --> 00:22:46,559 walk upon england's mountain screen and 613 00:22:51,750 --> 00:22:48,559 was the holy lamb of god 614 00:22:53,830 --> 00:22:51,760 on england's pleasant pastures seen now 615 00:22:54,950 --> 00:22:53,840 blake had strong links to alternative 616 00:22:58,470 --> 00:22:54,960 christian groups 617 00:23:00,230 --> 00:22:58,480 including the swedenborgian new church 618 00:23:02,870 --> 00:23:00,240 especially in his younger years he 619 00:23:05,110 --> 00:23:02,880 promoted open sexual relationships 620 00:23:08,630 --> 00:23:05,120 and an antithesis to marriage which he 621 00:23:10,630 --> 00:23:08,640 once described as the marriage hearse 622 00:23:12,070 --> 00:23:10,640 he's been cited as a forerunner of the 623 00:23:15,270 --> 00:23:12,080 free love movement 624 00:23:17,029 --> 00:23:15,280 of the later 19th century 625 00:23:18,470 --> 00:23:17,039 and this free love movement abroad 626 00:23:20,630 --> 00:23:18,480 reform tradition 627 00:23:23,510 --> 00:23:20,640 starting in the 1820s held that marriage 628 00:23:25,350 --> 00:23:23,520 is slavery and advocated the removal of 629 00:23:26,070 --> 00:23:25,360 all state restrictions on sexual 630 00:23:28,390 --> 00:23:26,080 activity 631 00:23:29,430 --> 00:23:28,400 such as homosexuality prostitution and 632 00:23:30,950 --> 00:23:29,440 adultery 633 00:23:33,190 --> 00:23:30,960 culminating in the birth control 634 00:23:34,870 --> 00:23:33,200 movement of the early 20th century 635 00:23:37,470 --> 00:23:34,880 a noted member of the movement was 636 00:23:40,470 --> 00:23:37,480 writer wilkie collins 637 00:23:43,590 --> 00:23:40,480 1824-1889 author of the woman in white 638 00:23:47,350 --> 00:23:43,600 1859 and the moonstone 1868 639 00:23:49,269 --> 00:23:47,360 and a contributor to household words 640 00:23:50,950 --> 00:23:49,279 collins had long-term relationships with 641 00:23:52,630 --> 00:23:50,960 two women at the same time 642 00:23:54,950 --> 00:23:52,640 neither of whom he married and with one 643 00:23:56,789 --> 00:23:54,960 of whom he had several children 644 00:23:58,390 --> 00:23:56,799 one of collins's closest friends and 645 00:24:01,590 --> 00:23:58,400 literary collaborator 646 00:24:03,029 --> 00:24:01,600 was charles dickens 1812-1870 647 00:24:04,710 --> 00:24:03,039 dickens himself was known for a 648 00:24:05,830 --> 00:24:04,720 long-term relationship with actress 649 00:24:09,110 --> 00:24:05,840 ellen turner 650 00:24:10,630 --> 00:24:09,120 who was 18 when he met her he never 651 00:24:12,710 --> 00:24:10,640 divorced his wife catherine 652 00:24:14,789 --> 00:24:12,720 though they did separate and turning 653 00:24:16,470 --> 00:24:14,799 remained the invisible woman for the 654 00:24:18,230 --> 00:24:16,480 rest of his life 655 00:24:20,630 --> 00:24:18,240 at the same time dickens expressed an 656 00:24:22,950 --> 00:24:20,640 academic interest in the paranormal 657 00:24:23,830 --> 00:24:22,960 and despite various paranormalities in 658 00:24:25,909 --> 00:24:23,840 his books 659 00:24:28,230 --> 00:24:25,919 such as spontaneous human combustion and 660 00:24:30,830 --> 00:24:28,240 ghosts he preferred to ascribe 661 00:24:32,789 --> 00:24:30,840 uncanny phenomena to psychological or 662 00:24:35,269 --> 00:24:32,799 physiological causes 663 00:24:36,950 --> 00:24:35,279 his interest extended to joining the 664 00:24:39,110 --> 00:24:36,960 ghost club 665 00:24:39,990 --> 00:24:39,120 and it was his death which led to its 666 00:24:42,230 --> 00:24:40,000 temporary 667 00:24:48,549 --> 00:24:42,240 disbanding which brings us back to where 668 00:24:53,350 --> 00:24:50,470 and that's what goes around from skeptic 669 00:24:55,669 --> 00:24:53,360 magazine september 2015 670 00:24:56,870 --> 00:24:55,679 volume 35 number three which you can 671 00:24:58,310 --> 00:24:56,880 download along with 672 00:25:01,310 --> 00:24:58,320 virtually every other magazine we've 673 00:25:04,789 --> 00:25:01,320 published from our website 674 00:25:07,190 --> 00:25:04,799 skeptics.com.eu and of course 675 00:25:07,830 --> 00:25:07,200 you can and should subscribe to our 676 00:25:12,830 --> 00:25:07,840 magazine 677 00:25:19,110 --> 00:25:14,140 issues 678 00:25:21,269 --> 00:25:19,120 [Music] 679 00:25:22,549 --> 00:25:21,279 somewhere between science and 680 00:25:27,029 --> 00:25:22,559 superstition 681 00:25:31,590 --> 00:25:28,870 look your daughter doesn't say she's a 682 00:25:34,710 --> 00:25:31,600 demon she says she's the devil himself 683 00:25:36,070 --> 00:25:34,720 that thing is not my daughter and i want 684 00:25:38,549 --> 00:25:36,080 you to tell me there's 685 00:25:41,269 --> 00:25:38,559 a show where the hosts don't just report 686 00:25:44,549 --> 00:25:41,279 on french science and spirituality 687 00:25:46,630 --> 00:25:44,559 but take part themselves 688 00:25:48,149 --> 00:25:46,640 well there is and it's ono ross and 689 00:25:51,110 --> 00:25:48,159 carrie on maximum fun 690 00:25:51,990 --> 00:25:51,120 this year we actually became certified 691 00:25:53,990 --> 00:25:52,000 exorcists 692 00:25:55,510 --> 00:25:54,000 so yes carrie and i can help your 693 00:25:58,630 --> 00:25:55,520 daughter 694 00:26:10,550 --> 00:25:58,640 or we can just talk about it on the show 695 00:26:19,029 --> 00:26:10,560 oh no ross and carey on maximumfun.org 696 00:26:23,350 --> 00:26:20,870 now it's time once again to look at the 697 00:26:24,950 --> 00:26:23,360 australian skeptics newsletter 698 00:26:26,390 --> 00:26:24,960 or should i say the newsletter from 699 00:26:29,590 --> 00:26:26,400 australian skeptics and this 700 00:26:32,149 --> 00:26:29,600 is newsletter number 125 701 00:26:33,350 --> 00:26:32,159 and this came out window to come out on 702 00:26:36,470 --> 00:26:33,360 the 15th 703 00:26:39,669 --> 00:26:36,480 of june hi all it 704 00:26:42,870 --> 00:26:39,679 says a mixed batch this edition 705 00:26:44,390 --> 00:26:42,880 not a lot of new news except for 706 00:26:47,669 --> 00:26:44,400 skepticon to be held 707 00:26:50,710 --> 00:26:47,679 on november the 20th through the 21st 708 00:26:53,669 --> 00:26:50,720 but chock full of philosophy activism 709 00:26:56,870 --> 00:26:53,679 conspiracies crazy theories ghost tours 710 00:26:57,750 --> 00:26:56,880 and naked aliens just another day at the 711 00:27:01,909 --> 00:26:57,760 office 712 00:27:06,710 --> 00:27:01,919 read on tim and thank you tim we will 713 00:27:10,390 --> 00:27:06,720 skepticon november 20th to the 21st 2021 714 00:27:13,990 --> 00:27:10,400 sydney wellington and online 715 00:27:16,470 --> 00:27:14,000 the 2021 australian skeptics 716 00:27:19,110 --> 00:27:16,480 annual national convention skepticon for 717 00:27:22,470 --> 00:27:19,120 short will be held this year on november 718 00:27:25,110 --> 00:27:22,480 to 21st as of first 719 00:27:27,029 --> 00:27:25,120 it will be held simultaneously by the 720 00:27:29,190 --> 00:27:27,039 australian skeptics from sydney 721 00:27:30,710 --> 00:27:29,200 australia and the new zealand skeptics 722 00:27:33,590 --> 00:27:30,720 from wellington new zealand 723 00:27:35,029 --> 00:27:33,600 plus online participation from 724 00:27:37,350 --> 00:27:35,039 everywhere else 725 00:27:39,029 --> 00:27:37,360 there will be face-to-face presentations 726 00:27:40,710 --> 00:27:39,039 in sydney and wellington 727 00:27:42,470 --> 00:27:40,720 the sydney event being held at the 728 00:27:45,990 --> 00:27:42,480 university of technology 729 00:27:47,909 --> 00:27:46,000 and the wellington event to be announced 730 00:27:49,029 --> 00:27:47,919 this year's attendees will be able to 731 00:27:51,669 --> 00:27:49,039 participate 732 00:27:53,430 --> 00:27:51,679 in a truly international event mixing 733 00:27:56,310 --> 00:27:53,440 with those speakers who will be 734 00:27:57,669 --> 00:27:56,320 physically present in one of the two 735 00:28:00,389 --> 00:27:57,679 main venues 736 00:28:01,190 --> 00:28:00,399 covert willing of course and interact 737 00:28:04,149 --> 00:28:01,200 with speakers 738 00:28:06,230 --> 00:28:04,159 in other cities and countries details of 739 00:28:09,269 --> 00:28:06,240 the speakers and ticket prices 740 00:28:11,750 --> 00:28:09,279 will be available soon 741 00:28:14,230 --> 00:28:11,760 and don't forget each of these stories 742 00:28:16,470 --> 00:28:14,240 is accompanied by a link 743 00:28:18,070 --> 00:28:16,480 medical professionals living in the 744 00:28:20,870 --> 00:28:18,080 byron bay region 745 00:28:21,590 --> 00:28:20,880 are angry and frustrated after 746 00:28:24,470 --> 00:28:21,600 businesses 747 00:28:27,269 --> 00:28:24,480 ask vaccinated customers not to enter 748 00:28:29,110 --> 00:28:27,279 and of course we covered this story last 749 00:28:31,510 --> 00:28:29,120 week on the skeptic zone with heidi 750 00:28:34,950 --> 00:28:31,520 robertson 751 00:28:38,230 --> 00:28:34,960 intelligence it's in your eyes 752 00:28:40,310 --> 00:28:38,240 curious story not iridology as 753 00:28:41,430 --> 00:28:40,320 it's about the pupil rather than the 754 00:28:43,990 --> 00:28:41,440 iris 755 00:28:44,470 --> 00:28:44,000 but one wonders if it's as simple as 756 00:28:47,590 --> 00:28:44,480 quote 757 00:28:48,389 --> 00:28:47,600 i'm interested so i opened my pupils 758 00:28:51,029 --> 00:28:48,399 more 759 00:28:53,830 --> 00:28:51,039 and quote and does that include that you 760 00:28:57,110 --> 00:28:53,840 are more intelligent 761 00:28:58,389 --> 00:28:57,120 why pseudoscience is here to stay review 762 00:29:01,669 --> 00:28:58,399 of a recent book 763 00:29:03,110 --> 00:29:01,679 on the fringe by michael d gordon that 764 00:29:06,549 --> 00:29:03,120 suggests 765 00:29:08,870 --> 00:29:06,559 that rather than scientific literacy 766 00:29:10,830 --> 00:29:08,880 the adversarial nature of the scientific 767 00:29:14,310 --> 00:29:10,840 method might be partly to blame for 768 00:29:16,710 --> 00:29:14,320 pseudosciences continued existence 769 00:29:17,430 --> 00:29:16,720 new south wales petition on voluntary 770 00:29:20,710 --> 00:29:17,440 assisted 771 00:29:23,110 --> 00:29:20,720 dying victoria tasmania and western 772 00:29:23,830 --> 00:29:23,120 australia have all legalized voluntary 773 00:29:26,950 --> 00:29:23,840 assisted 774 00:29:28,389 --> 00:29:26,960 dying as has new zealand 775 00:29:30,549 --> 00:29:28,399 it looks like south australia and 776 00:29:33,110 --> 00:29:30,559 queensland may soon follow 777 00:29:33,669 --> 00:29:33,120 and the northern territory if it can get 778 00:29:36,870 --> 00:29:33,679 past 779 00:29:38,710 --> 00:29:36,880 commonwealth restrictions now organizers 780 00:29:39,430 --> 00:29:38,720 in new south wales are asking for 781 00:29:41,590 --> 00:29:39,440 support 782 00:29:44,070 --> 00:29:41,600 with a petition to the new south wales 783 00:29:48,310 --> 00:29:47,110 fight against conspiracy theories kiwi 784 00:29:50,789 --> 00:29:48,320 style 785 00:29:51,750 --> 00:29:50,799 facebook page from new zealand that 786 00:29:54,549 --> 00:29:51,760 quote 787 00:29:55,909 --> 00:29:54,559 stands for misinformation spreading in 788 00:29:58,950 --> 00:29:55,919 eteroa 789 00:30:01,909 --> 00:29:58,960 an independent non-governmental and 790 00:30:02,710 --> 00:30:01,919 self-funded volunteer resource based for 791 00:30:05,110 --> 00:30:02,720 media 792 00:30:07,110 --> 00:30:05,120 health professionals activists and 793 00:30:10,230 --> 00:30:07,120 educators 794 00:30:13,669 --> 00:30:10,240 definitely worth a look 795 00:30:14,310 --> 00:30:13,679 anti-masters in science a revisionist 796 00:30:17,990 --> 00:30:14,320 article 797 00:30:21,269 --> 00:30:18,000 covers a paper from mit of all places 798 00:30:23,029 --> 00:30:21,279 that suggests quote scientists discover 799 00:30:24,230 --> 00:30:23,039 that anti-maskers are really good at 800 00:30:27,430 --> 00:30:24,240 science 801 00:30:27,830 --> 00:30:27,440 end quote and quote the study proved 802 00:30:31,750 --> 00:30:27,840 that 803 00:30:34,310 --> 00:30:31,760 they 804 00:30:36,470 --> 00:30:34,320 have signs on their side end quote 805 00:30:39,029 --> 00:30:36,480 according to the article 806 00:30:40,230 --> 00:30:39,039 definitely one for the anti-vaxxer 807 00:30:43,350 --> 00:30:40,240 anti-covered 808 00:30:45,590 --> 00:30:43,360 conspiracy orientated audience so you 809 00:30:48,710 --> 00:30:45,600 have to be warned 810 00:30:51,029 --> 00:30:48,720 science of astrology is back sri lankan 811 00:30:53,350 --> 00:30:51,039 site that suggests quote it is not 812 00:30:54,870 --> 00:30:53,360 unusual to find scientists who believe 813 00:30:57,909 --> 00:30:54,880 in astrology too 814 00:31:01,350 --> 00:30:57,919 especially in their personal lives 815 00:31:03,190 --> 00:31:01,360 but may not admit that in public 816 00:31:05,669 --> 00:31:03,200 thinking that it would damage their 817 00:31:07,269 --> 00:31:05,679 reputation as scientists 818 00:31:09,350 --> 00:31:07,279 one can be a noble prize-winning 819 00:31:12,070 --> 00:31:09,360 scientist and still ask an astrologer 820 00:31:13,830 --> 00:31:12,080 to suggest to him or her an auspicious 821 00:31:18,549 --> 00:31:13,840 time to leave home and go 822 00:31:22,630 --> 00:31:20,310 and there's more about that article 823 00:31:25,990 --> 00:31:22,640 there 824 00:31:26,950 --> 00:31:26,000 also the june 2021 issue of the skeptic 825 00:31:29,350 --> 00:31:26,960 magazine 826 00:31:31,509 --> 00:31:29,360 the journal from australian skeptics is 827 00:31:32,630 --> 00:31:31,519 at the printers now and digital copies 828 00:31:35,669 --> 00:31:32,640 have already been sent 829 00:31:36,789 --> 00:31:35,679 out yes that's true i received mine last 830 00:31:38,549 --> 00:31:36,799 week 831 00:31:41,750 --> 00:31:38,559 it has a major feature on why people 832 00:31:44,070 --> 00:31:41,760 believe as opposed to what they believe 833 00:31:44,950 --> 00:31:44,080 what psychologists and science leaders 834 00:31:46,789 --> 00:31:44,960 think 835 00:31:48,149 --> 00:31:46,799 the legal implications of holding 836 00:31:50,310 --> 00:31:48,159 beliefs and 837 00:31:51,830 --> 00:31:50,320 case studies of the victory of belief 838 00:31:53,750 --> 00:31:51,840 over reason 839 00:31:56,310 --> 00:31:53,760 we'll also be looking at the myths and 840 00:31:59,350 --> 00:31:56,320 conspiracies associated with deport 841 00:32:02,230 --> 00:31:59,360 arthur massacre that tragic event 842 00:32:04,310 --> 00:32:02,240 which occurred 25 years ago so if you 843 00:32:07,990 --> 00:32:04,320 haven't subscribed 844 00:32:10,070 --> 00:32:08,000 now is the time to do so the newsletter 845 00:32:13,590 --> 00:32:10,080 also covers events coming up 846 00:32:14,070 --> 00:32:13,600 in perth adelaide melbourne gold coast 847 00:32:21,830 --> 00:32:14,080 canberra 848 00:32:24,230 --> 00:32:21,840 they are busy items of interest 849 00:32:25,269 --> 00:32:24,240 bizarre alien-like creatures spotted in 850 00:32:27,110 --> 00:32:25,279 india 851 00:32:28,789 --> 00:32:27,120 a video of a strange-looking hominid 852 00:32:31,029 --> 00:32:28,799 creature has gone viral in 853 00:32:32,870 --> 00:32:31,039 india the footage was taken by a group 854 00:32:36,470 --> 00:32:32,880 of motorbike riders 855 00:32:40,230 --> 00:32:36,480 when they spotted the alien-like 856 00:32:43,110 --> 00:32:40,240 figure walking along a bridge 857 00:32:45,190 --> 00:32:43,120 travel tip number one creepiest 858 00:32:46,389 --> 00:32:45,200 supernatural museums in the united 859 00:32:48,430 --> 00:32:46,399 states 860 00:32:49,990 --> 00:32:48,440 places where you see all the 861 00:32:53,110 --> 00:32:50,000 paranormalities 862 00:32:54,950 --> 00:32:53,120 you like although curiously the national 863 00:32:57,830 --> 00:32:54,960 museum of the paranormal looks 864 00:32:59,269 --> 00:32:57,840 like a pretty rundown cottage maybe the 865 00:33:02,950 --> 00:32:59,279 paranormal is not so 866 00:33:07,669 --> 00:33:02,960 profitable travel tip number two 867 00:33:11,110 --> 00:33:07,679 the paranormal in american art 868 00:33:12,470 --> 00:33:11,120 toledo museum of art not exactly the 869 00:33:15,430 --> 00:33:12,480 first u.s gallery 870 00:33:17,269 --> 00:33:15,440 that springs to mind the exhibit covers 871 00:33:18,789 --> 00:33:17,279 works from the early 19th century 872 00:33:20,870 --> 00:33:18,799 through to the present 873 00:33:22,710 --> 00:33:20,880 featuring paintings and sculpture 874 00:33:24,710 --> 00:33:22,720 drawings sketchbooks and journals 875 00:33:25,909 --> 00:33:24,720 prints photographs furniture clothing 876 00:33:28,070 --> 00:33:25,919 and textiles 877 00:33:29,590 --> 00:33:28,080 videos and other objects such as 878 00:33:32,710 --> 00:33:29,600 scientific instruments 879 00:33:35,669 --> 00:33:32,720 and mediumistic occult paraphernalia 880 00:33:37,509 --> 00:33:35,679 including ouija boards and plant jets 881 00:33:39,830 --> 00:33:37,519 travel tip number three 882 00:33:40,789 --> 00:33:39,840 booze history paranormal voodoo and 883 00:33:44,149 --> 00:33:40,799 mystery tour 884 00:33:48,149 --> 00:33:44,159 sounds good new orleans walking tour on 885 00:33:51,230 --> 00:33:48,159 june 25th travel tip number four 886 00:33:52,470 --> 00:33:51,240 creepiest places in west virginia 887 00:33:54,630 --> 00:33:52,480 supposedly 888 00:33:55,590 --> 00:33:54,640 making this state the creepiest in the 889 00:33:57,990 --> 00:33:55,600 u.s 890 00:33:59,430 --> 00:33:58,000 the national museum of the paranormal 891 00:34:03,029 --> 00:33:59,440 crops up again 892 00:34:04,710 --> 00:34:03,039 as does the abandoned amusement park 893 00:34:07,750 --> 00:34:04,720 and the place where the original 894 00:34:10,950 --> 00:34:07,760 sightings of mothman were made 895 00:34:12,470 --> 00:34:10,960 travel tip number five uk midsummer 896 00:34:14,950 --> 00:34:12,480 spookiness 897 00:34:16,950 --> 00:34:14,960 a pretty comprehensive list of all the 898 00:34:19,990 --> 00:34:16,960 spooky things due to happen across the 899 00:34:22,550 --> 00:34:20,000 uk over the next couple of weeks 900 00:34:23,190 --> 00:34:22,560 according to legend everything from 901 00:34:26,310 --> 00:34:23,200 ghosts 902 00:34:29,430 --> 00:34:26,320 pixies devils and barges to 903 00:34:33,190 --> 00:34:29,440 standing stones that won't stand still 904 00:34:36,310 --> 00:34:33,200 and shock horror finale psychic wrong 905 00:34:36,790 --> 00:34:36,320 how could it happen the kyle and jackie 906 00:34:44,550 --> 00:34:36,800 o 907 00:34:47,190 --> 00:34:44,560 will meet his demise 908 00:34:47,990 --> 00:34:47,200 in quote frighteningly accurate detail 909 00:34:50,710 --> 00:34:48,000 end quote 910 00:34:52,069 --> 00:34:50,720 accurate in all but the fact that it was 911 00:34:54,310 --> 00:34:52,079 inaccurate 912 00:34:55,190 --> 00:34:54,320 in that sandy lens that's carl 913 00:34:58,630 --> 00:34:55,200 sandylands 914 00:35:01,349 --> 00:34:58,640 was supposed to have drowned on june 10. 915 00:35:02,630 --> 00:35:01,359 last thing we heard he didn't we'd 916 00:35:07,190 --> 00:35:02,640 comment but 917 00:35:11,270 --> 00:35:09,430 all that and more is at your fingertips 918 00:35:12,790 --> 00:35:11,280 when you subscribe to the australian 919 00:35:15,430 --> 00:35:12,800 skeptics newsletter written 920 00:35:35,910 --> 00:35:15,440 and compiled by tim mendham and you can 921 00:35:39,510 --> 00:35:38,310 hi this is rob palmer i write the 922 00:35:42,550 --> 00:35:39,520 well-known skeptic 923 00:35:43,910 --> 00:35:42,560 column in skeptical inquirer online and 924 00:35:45,990 --> 00:35:43,920 i'm a team member of the guerrilla 925 00:35:49,190 --> 00:35:46,000 skeptics and wikipedia project 926 00:35:50,790 --> 00:35:49,200 gsow but you find folks may know me 927 00:35:51,910 --> 00:35:50,800 because i contributed segments for 928 00:35:54,790 --> 00:35:51,920 several episodes 929 00:35:56,470 --> 00:35:54,800 of this podcast check out my interviews 930 00:35:59,750 --> 00:35:56,480 from cycon 2019 931 00:36:02,150 --> 00:35:59,760 starting with episode 576 932 00:36:03,910 --> 00:36:02,160 so here's a little known fact all of my 933 00:36:06,069 --> 00:36:03,920 skeptical activism stems from 934 00:36:09,510 --> 00:36:06,079 discovering the skeptic zone 935 00:36:11,829 --> 00:36:09,520 yep i first heard of the gsow project 936 00:36:13,190 --> 00:36:11,839 right here back in 2012 due to richard's 937 00:36:14,950 --> 00:36:13,200 selfless support of it 938 00:36:17,589 --> 00:36:14,960 and other skeptical activities around 939 00:36:19,430 --> 00:36:17,599 the world i can honestly say 940 00:36:21,670 --> 00:36:19,440 i'd likely still be a skeptical couch 941 00:36:23,349 --> 00:36:21,680 potato if i hadn't discovered this 942 00:36:25,589 --> 00:36:23,359 podcast 943 00:36:27,670 --> 00:36:25,599 so besides giving back to the zone by 944 00:36:29,510 --> 00:36:27,680 contributing occasional segments 945 00:36:31,990 --> 00:36:29,520 i contribute to the success of the show 946 00:36:34,069 --> 00:36:32,000 with ongoing monthly micropayments 947 00:36:35,109 --> 00:36:34,079 and i'm asking you to consider doing the 948 00:36:37,109 --> 00:36:35,119 same 949 00:36:38,310 --> 00:36:37,119 you can do that by following the patreon 950 00:36:41,670 --> 00:36:38,320 or paypal links 951 00:36:42,870 --> 00:36:41,680 at skepticzone.tv every donation 952 00:36:54,380 --> 00:36:42,880 supports the show 953 00:37:05,680 --> 00:36:54,390 and richard will really appreciate it 954 00:37:09,030 --> 00:37:06,950 [Music] 955 00:37:10,150 --> 00:37:09,040 is the earth flat is it still flat was 956 00:37:13,430 --> 00:37:10,160 it ever flat 957 00:37:15,109 --> 00:37:13,440 today in the trove segment digitized 958 00:37:15,670 --> 00:37:15,119 newspapers articles gazettes and 959 00:37:19,510 --> 00:37:15,680 journals 960 00:37:24,330 --> 00:37:19,520 at trove.nla.gov dot a u 961 00:37:27,910 --> 00:37:25,990 [Music] 962 00:37:29,750 --> 00:37:27,920 and it's interesting to see the 963 00:37:33,190 --> 00:37:29,760 references going back 964 00:37:37,030 --> 00:37:33,200 with the term flat earth we turn 965 00:37:40,230 --> 00:37:37,040 to the year 1900 966 00:37:41,270 --> 00:37:40,240 friday the 1st of june from the dungog 967 00:37:44,069 --> 00:37:41,280 chronicle 968 00:37:45,030 --> 00:37:44,079 durum and gloucester advertiser a flat 969 00:37:57,510 --> 00:37:45,040 earth 970 00:38:00,150 --> 00:37:57,520 and oceans are held in place by 971 00:38:02,470 --> 00:38:00,160 mighty mountains of ice was the 972 00:38:03,510 --> 00:38:02,480 ingenious theory propounded by lady 973 00:38:06,550 --> 00:38:03,520 blunt 974 00:38:08,950 --> 00:38:06,560 in exeter hall london 975 00:38:10,069 --> 00:38:08,960 lady blount is the wife of sir walter d 976 00:38:12,230 --> 00:38:10,079 soddington blount 977 00:38:14,230 --> 00:38:12,240 head of one of the oldest families in 978 00:38:17,829 --> 00:38:14,240 england she is also 979 00:38:20,550 --> 00:38:17,839 the high priestess of the satetics 980 00:38:21,270 --> 00:38:20,560 or those who believe in a flat earth the 981 00:38:24,950 --> 00:38:21,280 reverend 982 00:38:28,390 --> 00:38:24,960 e w bullinger dd 983 00:38:31,270 --> 00:38:28,400 the most noted scientist who has only 984 00:38:32,550 --> 00:38:31,280 lately come to believe that he walks on 985 00:38:35,670 --> 00:38:32,560 a flat and 986 00:38:39,430 --> 00:38:35,680 motionless earth presided and miss 987 00:38:40,310 --> 00:38:39,440 zappora monith opened the meeting by 988 00:38:43,670 --> 00:38:40,320 singing 989 00:38:47,190 --> 00:38:43,680 gravitation the glory song of the 990 00:38:47,990 --> 00:38:47,200 synthetics here are a few specimen 991 00:38:50,150 --> 00:38:48,000 verses 992 00:38:53,750 --> 00:38:50,160 the gravity theory when started was 993 00:38:56,950 --> 00:38:53,760 clearly a fancy witch newton had a run 994 00:38:57,750 --> 00:38:56,960 imagine the motion this world mostly 995 00:39:00,870 --> 00:38:57,760 ocean 996 00:39:04,310 --> 00:39:00,880 once a cylinder shot out from the sun 997 00:39:07,510 --> 00:39:04,320 like solar radiation inherent rotation 998 00:39:08,710 --> 00:39:07,520 sent the globe whirling round till full 999 00:39:11,190 --> 00:39:08,720 soon 1000 00:39:12,230 --> 00:39:11,200 just picture the view the sparks how 1001 00:39:15,430 --> 00:39:12,240 they flew 1002 00:39:17,829 --> 00:39:15,440 and a beauty so bright made the moon 1003 00:39:19,910 --> 00:39:17,839 the glow bite avers it took millions of 1004 00:39:23,750 --> 00:39:19,920 years for each to develop 1005 00:39:27,190 --> 00:39:23,760 and cool sir but he who will try 1006 00:39:30,870 --> 00:39:27,200 to give god the lie shall yet 1007 00:39:33,270 --> 00:39:30,880 prove himself but a fool sir 1008 00:39:35,430 --> 00:39:33,280 lady blount acknowledges her own 1009 00:39:37,670 --> 00:39:35,440 responsibility for the words 1010 00:39:38,870 --> 00:39:37,680 and she trained an accompaniment on the 1011 00:39:43,030 --> 00:39:38,880 mandolin 1012 00:39:46,550 --> 00:39:43,040 for a selection of synthetic heirs 1013 00:39:50,470 --> 00:39:46,560 suitably entitled the nebula 1014 00:39:52,870 --> 00:39:50,480 hypothesis and a quick pause from me 1015 00:39:54,069 --> 00:39:52,880 just to say some of the words are a 1016 00:39:56,710 --> 00:39:54,079 little unclear 1017 00:39:57,430 --> 00:39:56,720 it's a bit blurry but uh we'll do our 1018 00:40:00,069 --> 00:39:57,440 best 1019 00:40:01,030 --> 00:40:00,079 nibbler hypothesis newton was an 1020 00:40:03,109 --> 00:40:01,040 ignoramus 1021 00:40:04,150 --> 00:40:03,119 the solar system a romance and 1022 00:40:07,430 --> 00:40:04,160 gravitation 1023 00:40:10,470 --> 00:40:07,440 a delusion blandly explained 1024 00:40:12,150 --> 00:40:10,480 lady blount these ideas are based on the 1025 00:40:14,950 --> 00:40:12,160 supposition of men 1026 00:40:15,670 --> 00:40:14,960 fallible men mortal men they are not 1027 00:40:18,870 --> 00:40:15,680 nibbler 1028 00:40:21,829 --> 00:40:18,880 hypothesis scientists tell us that 1029 00:40:22,870 --> 00:40:21,839 because a ship at sea disappears from 1030 00:40:25,349 --> 00:40:22,880 the eye 1031 00:40:26,470 --> 00:40:25,359 the earth is a whirring globe but 1032 00:40:29,990 --> 00:40:26,480 synthetics 1033 00:40:31,349 --> 00:40:30,000 explain that phenomenon by the laws of 1034 00:40:33,829 --> 00:40:31,359 perspective 1035 00:40:36,790 --> 00:40:33,839 ships have sailed around the world but 1036 00:40:40,150 --> 00:40:36,800 only in an eastly and westerly direction 1037 00:40:44,550 --> 00:40:40,160 no ship has ever passed the doors and 1038 00:40:47,109 --> 00:40:44,560 bars of ice at the so-called poles 1039 00:40:47,670 --> 00:40:47,119 which god has placed to keep the sea 1040 00:40:50,550 --> 00:40:47,680 from 1041 00:40:52,230 --> 00:40:50,560 running out the supporters of the 1042 00:40:54,870 --> 00:40:52,240 whirring globe theory 1043 00:40:55,430 --> 00:40:54,880 say that the shadow of the earth on the 1044 00:40:58,150 --> 00:40:55,440 moon 1045 00:40:59,109 --> 00:40:58,160 causes an eclipse i say the eclipse is 1046 00:41:02,150 --> 00:40:59,119 brought about by 1047 00:41:02,870 --> 00:41:02,160 a periodic innate condition within the 1048 00:41:05,630 --> 00:41:02,880 moon 1049 00:41:06,950 --> 00:41:05,640 we are told that at the so called 1050 00:41:09,990 --> 00:41:06,960 antipodes 1051 00:41:12,069 --> 00:41:10,000 people hang with their heads downwards 1052 00:41:13,349 --> 00:41:12,079 if the people of the antipodes do hang 1053 00:41:15,510 --> 00:41:13,359 heads downwards 1054 00:41:16,550 --> 00:41:15,520 then why don't they do it when they come 1055 00:41:19,589 --> 00:41:16,560 to london 1056 00:41:21,990 --> 00:41:19,599 asked lady blount triumphantly and she 1057 00:41:22,950 --> 00:41:22,000 asserted in conclusion that the world 1058 00:41:26,470 --> 00:41:22,960 was a vast 1059 00:41:29,750 --> 00:41:26,480 outstretched plane and not a giddy 1060 00:41:30,790 --> 00:41:29,760 ball that must have been some meeting 1061 00:41:34,230 --> 00:41:30,800 way back in 1062 00:41:35,990 --> 00:41:34,240 1906 well let's skip forward to the year 1063 00:41:39,109 --> 00:41:36,000 1951 the 11th 1064 00:41:42,230 --> 00:41:39,119 of january in the denmark post 1065 00:41:43,030 --> 00:41:42,240 which is in western australia and 1066 00:41:45,270 --> 00:41:43,040 according to this 1067 00:41:50,150 --> 00:41:45,280 it appears the denmark post was in 1068 00:41:53,109 --> 00:41:50,160 publication from 1949 to 1954 1069 00:41:54,950 --> 00:41:53,119 flat earth there are countless people 1070 00:41:55,829 --> 00:41:54,960 who sincerely believe that the earth is 1071 00:41:58,470 --> 00:41:55,839 flat 1072 00:41:59,430 --> 00:41:58,480 they are most numerous and vocal in 1073 00:42:02,150 --> 00:41:59,440 america 1074 00:42:02,950 --> 00:42:02,160 in england there are fewer who declare 1075 00:42:06,150 --> 00:42:02,960 their belief 1076 00:42:09,670 --> 00:42:06,160 although there is an act of parliament 1077 00:42:11,750 --> 00:42:09,680 that backs up flat earth brethren 1078 00:42:14,630 --> 00:42:11,760 some of the english engineering firms 1079 00:42:16,950 --> 00:42:14,640 who were invited to tender for the 1080 00:42:18,390 --> 00:42:16,960 construction of the sewers canal 1081 00:42:19,990 --> 00:42:18,400 declined 1082 00:42:21,829 --> 00:42:20,000 because they thought it would be 1083 00:42:24,870 --> 00:42:21,839 impossible to hold up 1084 00:42:28,870 --> 00:42:24,880 huge sand banks on the earth's curved 1085 00:42:31,910 --> 00:42:28,880 surface de lesseps the french engineer 1086 00:42:32,630 --> 00:42:31,920 who finally did the job assumed that the 1087 00:42:36,790 --> 00:42:32,640 earth was 1088 00:42:39,030 --> 00:42:36,800 flat and conducted the canal accordingly 1089 00:42:40,550 --> 00:42:39,040 in consequence of this an act of 1090 00:42:43,750 --> 00:42:40,560 parliament was passed 1091 00:42:44,550 --> 00:42:43,760 the railways powers and construction 1092 00:42:47,829 --> 00:42:44,560 amendment 1093 00:42:50,630 --> 00:42:47,839 act 1870 and has not 1094 00:42:51,589 --> 00:42:50,640 since been repealed forbidding any 1095 00:42:53,829 --> 00:42:51,599 engineer 1096 00:42:55,829 --> 00:42:53,839 inviting to tender for the construction 1097 00:42:58,790 --> 00:42:55,839 of railways and canals to make 1098 00:42:59,750 --> 00:42:58,800 any allowance for the curvature of the 1099 00:43:05,109 --> 00:42:59,760 earth's 1100 00:43:08,870 --> 00:43:05,119 surface now let's go to the year 1935 1101 00:43:12,069 --> 00:43:08,880 the 15th of june the geraldton guardian 1102 00:43:13,030 --> 00:43:12,079 and express from western australia a 1103 00:43:16,390 --> 00:43:13,040 flat earth 1104 00:43:18,710 --> 00:43:16,400 inventor's strange theory 1105 00:43:21,349 --> 00:43:18,720 a man who for more than 50 years tried 1106 00:43:24,630 --> 00:43:21,359 to prove that the earth was flat 1107 00:43:25,190 --> 00:43:24,640 has just died at bath england he was 1108 00:43:28,230 --> 00:43:25,200 william 1109 00:43:31,910 --> 00:43:28,240 edgell aged 73 years who 1110 00:43:33,670 --> 00:43:31,920 when 20 took an oath to his dying father 1111 00:43:36,790 --> 00:43:33,680 that he would prove the theory 1112 00:43:39,589 --> 00:43:36,800 on which he had worked ever since 1113 00:43:40,069 --> 00:43:39,599 to study the night skies mr edgel never 1114 00:43:43,589 --> 00:43:40,079 went 1115 00:43:45,829 --> 00:43:43,599 to bed but slept in a chair 1116 00:43:47,589 --> 00:43:45,839 he erected in his garden steel tube 1117 00:43:48,390 --> 00:43:47,599 through which he could watch the pole 1118 00:43:51,870 --> 00:43:48,400 star 1119 00:43:55,190 --> 00:43:51,880 and he evolved the theory of a flat 1120 00:43:55,750 --> 00:43:55,200 basin-shaped earth with the sun moving 1121 00:43:58,470 --> 00:43:55,760 north 1122 00:44:00,390 --> 00:43:58,480 and south across it he contended that 1123 00:44:04,470 --> 00:44:00,400 the pole star was only 1124 00:44:08,710 --> 00:44:04,480 5 000 miles away and that the sun 1125 00:44:11,910 --> 00:44:08,720 was no more than 10 miles in diameter 1126 00:44:12,870 --> 00:44:11,920 mr edgel invented a free wheel for 1127 00:44:15,910 --> 00:44:12,880 bicycles 1128 00:44:16,790 --> 00:44:15,920 an automatic weighing machine and an 1129 00:44:21,470 --> 00:44:16,800 airless 1130 00:44:25,349 --> 00:44:21,480 tire and now we go all the way back to 1131 00:44:28,309 --> 00:44:25,359 1897 glenn innis examiner and 1132 00:44:30,630 --> 00:44:28,319 general advertiser and on friday the 1133 00:44:33,670 --> 00:44:30,640 16th of july 1134 00:44:35,430 --> 00:44:33,680 is the earth flat we take the following 1135 00:44:37,990 --> 00:44:35,440 from the auckland news 1136 00:44:39,349 --> 00:44:38,000 on the coast of florida experiments are 1137 00:44:42,230 --> 00:44:39,359 about to be made 1138 00:44:44,309 --> 00:44:42,240 or were not long since for the purpose 1139 00:44:45,270 --> 00:44:44,319 of demonstrating that the earth is not 1140 00:44:48,390 --> 00:44:45,280 round 1141 00:44:49,030 --> 00:44:48,400 as is generally believed but on the 1142 00:44:52,069 --> 00:44:49,040 contrary 1143 00:44:53,750 --> 00:44:52,079 flat now as during an eclipse the shadow 1144 00:44:57,430 --> 00:44:53,760 of the earth upon the moon 1145 00:45:00,069 --> 00:44:57,440 is decidedly round it seems singular 1146 00:45:00,870 --> 00:45:00,079 that the flat earth theories will 1147 00:45:03,750 --> 00:45:00,880 contend 1148 00:45:04,069 --> 00:45:03,760 that the earth is not round but flat of 1149 00:45:07,510 --> 00:45:04,079 course 1150 00:45:10,309 --> 00:45:07,520 like a pancake the earth might be both 1151 00:45:11,190 --> 00:45:10,319 round and flat but even this notion 1152 00:45:13,829 --> 00:45:11,200 would not 1153 00:45:14,710 --> 00:45:13,839 tally with the ideas of these flat earth 1154 00:45:17,750 --> 00:45:14,720 people 1155 00:45:20,309 --> 00:45:17,760 the principal arguments they advance 1156 00:45:23,030 --> 00:45:20,319 are that a ship might seem to sail 1157 00:45:26,150 --> 00:45:23,040 around a ball when it merely sails 1158 00:45:27,589 --> 00:45:26,160 round a circle that all the effects of 1159 00:45:30,950 --> 00:45:27,599 day and night could be 1160 00:45:31,670 --> 00:45:30,960 produced by a fixed sun shining down 1161 00:45:34,470 --> 00:45:31,680 upon a 1162 00:45:35,510 --> 00:45:34,480 circular earth revolving like a card on 1163 00:45:38,309 --> 00:45:35,520 a pin 1164 00:45:39,589 --> 00:45:38,319 and that the longest rivers have a 1165 00:45:42,870 --> 00:45:39,599 descent of only 1166 00:45:47,109 --> 00:45:42,880 a few feet they say that the phenomenon 1167 00:45:50,230 --> 00:45:47,119 at sea of a ship rising or disappearing 1168 00:45:51,829 --> 00:45:50,240 is to be explained by refraction and if 1169 00:45:54,390 --> 00:45:51,839 the earth was spherical 1170 00:45:55,190 --> 00:45:54,400 the compass would not point north and 1171 00:45:57,750 --> 00:45:55,200 south 1172 00:45:58,230 --> 00:45:57,760 these theorists assert that isaac newton 1173 00:46:01,510 --> 00:45:58,240 was 1174 00:46:02,390 --> 00:46:01,520 crazy and that galileo and columbus 1175 00:46:05,190 --> 00:46:02,400 mistaken 1176 00:46:07,670 --> 00:46:05,200 if the earth were a revolving globe a 1177 00:46:10,870 --> 00:46:07,680 projectile thrown vertically upward 1178 00:46:11,349 --> 00:46:10,880 would not fall on the same spot which it 1179 00:46:13,670 --> 00:46:11,359 was 1180 00:46:15,190 --> 00:46:13,680 hurled and all these propositions they 1181 00:46:18,790 --> 00:46:15,200 claim are backed up by 1182 00:46:20,550 --> 00:46:18,800 copious quotations from the bible 1183 00:46:21,829 --> 00:46:20,560 such as the four angels at the four 1184 00:46:24,309 --> 00:46:21,839 corners of the earth 1185 00:46:25,430 --> 00:46:24,319 the four winds of heaven and numerous 1186 00:46:27,190 --> 00:46:25,440 others 1187 00:46:29,190 --> 00:46:27,200 while though it sounds serious 1188 00:46:32,230 --> 00:46:29,200 experiments are to be 1189 00:46:35,430 --> 00:46:32,240 commenced shortly at florida though 1190 00:46:37,829 --> 00:46:35,440 what the nature of these will be it is 1191 00:46:39,349 --> 00:46:37,839 impossible to say 1192 00:46:41,990 --> 00:46:39,359 now let's turn to the pages of the 1193 00:46:46,390 --> 00:46:42,000 barrier miner from broken hill new south 1194 00:46:49,270 --> 00:46:46,400 wales published on the 27th of july 1905 1195 00:46:49,829 --> 00:46:49,280 flat earth theories speaking recently in 1196 00:46:53,670 --> 00:46:49,839 london 1197 00:46:56,710 --> 00:46:53,680 at exeter hall on is water level 1198 00:46:58,790 --> 00:46:56,720 or convex dr d evans 1199 00:47:00,870 --> 00:46:58,800 vice president of the universal 1200 00:47:04,069 --> 00:47:00,880 synthetic society 1201 00:47:05,829 --> 00:47:04,079 said that if we lived on a globe 25 000 1202 00:47:08,829 --> 00:47:05,839 miles in circumference 1203 00:47:10,630 --> 00:47:08,839 the declivity of the first ma would be 1204 00:47:13,910 --> 00:47:10,640 7.8 1205 00:47:16,790 --> 00:47:13,920 which every man knew was not a fact 1206 00:47:17,750 --> 00:47:16,800 if there was a curvature in the sewers 1207 00:47:20,390 --> 00:47:17,760 canal 1208 00:47:21,030 --> 00:47:20,400 then the red sea end of it would be one 1209 00:47:24,549 --> 00:47:21,040 mile 1210 00:47:28,390 --> 00:47:24,559 270 feet below that of the port 1211 00:47:30,630 --> 00:47:28,400 side end which was manifestly impossible 1212 00:47:32,230 --> 00:47:30,640 on the other hand the earth was seen 1213 00:47:35,430 --> 00:47:32,240 from a balloon 1214 00:47:38,150 --> 00:47:35,440 was shaped like a saucer lady blount 1215 00:47:40,150 --> 00:47:38,160 occupied the chair and the proceedings 1216 00:47:43,270 --> 00:47:40,160 were opened by a prayer 1217 00:47:43,910 --> 00:47:43,280 that the almighty would open the eyes of 1218 00:47:46,710 --> 00:47:43,920 men 1219 00:47:48,470 --> 00:47:46,720 to the truth which the satatic society 1220 00:47:50,549 --> 00:47:48,480 was trying to teach 1221 00:47:52,349 --> 00:47:50,559 now jumping around history again we end 1222 00:47:55,910 --> 00:47:52,359 up in the year 1223 00:47:59,349 --> 00:47:55,920 1939 the 27th of july 1224 00:48:02,069 --> 00:47:59,359 goldman evening penny post a flat earth 1225 00:48:02,630 --> 00:48:02,079 we received recently from america an 1226 00:48:05,349 --> 00:48:02,640 appeal 1227 00:48:05,990 --> 00:48:05,359 for support for the quote american 1228 00:48:08,790 --> 00:48:06,000 society 1229 00:48:09,829 --> 00:48:08,800 of flat earth believers end quote we 1230 00:48:12,309 --> 00:48:09,839 will admit 1231 00:48:13,829 --> 00:48:12,319 as the americans would say this is a new 1232 00:48:16,230 --> 00:48:13,839 one on us 1233 00:48:18,549 --> 00:48:16,240 we are not altogether surprised for it 1234 00:48:20,710 --> 00:48:18,559 is amazing how many societies there are 1235 00:48:23,349 --> 00:48:20,720 which can live upon the credulity 1236 00:48:24,390 --> 00:48:23,359 of the human being judging him in the 1237 00:48:27,109 --> 00:48:24,400 mass 1238 00:48:27,829 --> 00:48:27,119 no doubt many societies perform a useful 1239 00:48:30,549 --> 00:48:27,839 service 1240 00:48:32,950 --> 00:48:30,559 but we do find it hard to realize that a 1241 00:48:35,800 --> 00:48:32,960 society of flat earth believers 1242 00:48:40,950 --> 00:48:35,810 can get away with it 1243 00:48:46,150 --> 00:48:44,069 and so there we are just a few 1244 00:48:47,670 --> 00:48:46,160 of the hundreds of references in the 1245 00:48:50,549 --> 00:48:47,680 trove archives 1246 00:48:51,349 --> 00:48:50,559 to flat earth and it's quite astounding 1247 00:48:54,549 --> 00:48:51,359 to think that 1248 00:48:56,390 --> 00:48:54,559 in this day and age the percentage of 1249 00:48:58,069 --> 00:48:56,400 people who sincerely believe in the flat 1250 00:48:59,349 --> 00:48:58,079 earth or at least go along with it to 1251 00:49:02,309 --> 00:48:59,359 some degree 1252 00:49:04,630 --> 00:49:02,319 is higher than it was a century ago or 1253 00:49:06,790 --> 00:49:04,640 maybe that's just an effect of us 1254 00:49:08,549 --> 00:49:06,800 being able to see quite easily and 1255 00:49:16,069 --> 00:49:08,559 clearly the number of people 1256 00:49:17,910 --> 00:49:16,079 who go along with this idea 1257 00:49:19,829 --> 00:49:17,920 and once again a tip of the hat to the 1258 00:49:22,870 --> 00:49:19,839 good people at trove 1259 00:49:24,390 --> 00:49:22,880 at trove.nla.gov dot a u 1260 00:49:26,390 --> 00:49:24,400 who spend their time digitizing 1261 00:49:37,970 --> 00:49:26,400 newspapers and periodicals and 1262 00:49:37,980 --> 00:49:47,990 [Music] 1263 00:49:50,790 --> 00:49:49,510 thank you for listening to the skeptic 1264 00:49:52,470 --> 00:49:50,800 zone and thank you to those people 1265 00:49:56,230 --> 00:49:52,480 who've just come on board 1266 00:49:58,309 --> 00:49:56,240 via patreon or paypal at skepticzone.tv 1267 00:49:59,829 --> 00:49:58,319 if you enjoy the show every week 1268 00:50:02,150 --> 00:49:59,839 if it means you get an hour's worth of 1269 00:50:03,750 --> 00:50:02,160 entertainment education 1270 00:50:05,750 --> 00:50:03,760 something to listen to while you're 1271 00:50:07,430 --> 00:50:05,760 doing your daily walk your daily jog 1272 00:50:09,109 --> 00:50:07,440 your drive in the car 1273 00:50:11,430 --> 00:50:09,119 sitting on the bus on the train on the 1274 00:50:13,270 --> 00:50:11,440 bike on the couch 1275 00:50:15,430 --> 00:50:13,280 or whatever you're doing then i 1276 00:50:16,549 --> 00:50:15,440 appreciate everybody who contributes 1277 00:50:18,390 --> 00:50:16,559 back to the show 1278 00:50:20,309 --> 00:50:18,400 as my friend brian dunnington skeptoid 1279 00:50:21,910 --> 00:50:20,319 says it's a two-way street 1280 00:50:23,510 --> 00:50:21,920 and speaking of my friend brian dunning 1281 00:50:25,910 --> 00:50:23,520 he recently sent 1282 00:50:27,270 --> 00:50:25,920 photographs of his visit to death valley 1283 00:50:30,470 --> 00:50:27,280 in california 1284 00:50:34,069 --> 00:50:30,480 where the temperature was in celsius 1285 00:50:37,190 --> 00:50:34,079 what did he post 52 degrees 1286 00:50:40,870 --> 00:50:37,200 52 what the actual 1287 00:50:43,270 --> 00:50:40,880 hell what 52 it's unimaginable 1288 00:50:44,390 --> 00:50:43,280 and he went walking in it well that's 1289 00:50:46,150 --> 00:50:44,400 brian for you 1290 00:50:47,750 --> 00:50:46,160 now i've been to las vegas when it's 1291 00:50:51,190 --> 00:50:47,760 been in the 1292 00:50:54,230 --> 00:50:51,200 i guess it would have been 45 1293 00:50:55,750 --> 00:50:54,240 43 45 degrees with a hot wind and that 1294 00:50:58,309 --> 00:50:55,760 was like being in an oven i can't 1295 00:51:01,430 --> 00:50:58,319 imagine what 52 degrees is like 1296 00:51:02,870 --> 00:51:01,440 coming up on next week's show things 1297 00:51:04,870 --> 00:51:02,880 it's a bit of a mystery because i 1298 00:51:05,750 --> 00:51:04,880 haven't recorded it yet we'll discover 1299 00:51:09,030 --> 00:51:05,760 that together 1300 00:51:10,790 --> 00:51:09,040 next week but for this week for this 1301 00:51:17,030 --> 00:51:10,800 week this is richard saunders 1302 00:51:20,309 --> 00:51:18,790 you've been listening to the skeptic 1303 00:51:23,470 --> 00:51:20,319 zone podcast 1304 00:51:24,870 --> 00:51:23,480 please visit our website at 1305 00:51:27,910 --> 00:51:24,880 www.skepticzone.tv 1306 00:51:29,910 --> 00:51:27,920 for show notes contacts and to access 1307 00:51:33,430 --> 00:51:29,920 the back catalog of episodes 1308 00:51:35,510 --> 00:51:33,440 going back to 2008. you can follow the 1309 00:51:38,950 --> 00:51:35,520 skeptic zone podcast on twitter 1310 00:51:42,549 --> 00:51:38,960 at skepticzone visit our facebook page 1311 00:51:43,910 --> 00:51:42,559 or leave a review on itunes you can also 1312 00:51:47,109 --> 00:51:43,920 support the skeptic zone 1313 00:51:47,910 --> 00:51:47,119 via patreon or paypal the skeptic zone 1314 00:51:50,790 --> 00:51:47,920 podcast 1315 00:51:52,549 --> 00:51:50,800 is an independent production the views 1316 00:51:53,030 --> 00:51:52,559 and opinions expressed on the skeptic 1317 00:51:55,030 --> 00:51:53,040 zone 1318 00:51:56,230 --> 00:51:55,040 are not necessarily those of australian 1319 00:52:11,109 --> 00:51:56,240 skeptics or 1320 00:52:16,470 --> 00:52:14,150 okay this breaks down a lot actually 1321 00:52:17,910 --> 00:52:16,480 this quotes from blake and dickens and 1322 00:52:21,030 --> 00:52:17,920 wilkie collins and all sorts of people i 1323 00:52:25,750 --> 00:52:23,910 all right hi my name is tim mendenham 1324 00:52:26,390 --> 00:52:25,760 i'm the editor of australian skeptics 1325 00:52:28,710 --> 00:52:26,400 magazine 1326 00:52:30,309 --> 00:52:28,720 the editor and this particular event is 1327 00:52:32,230 --> 00:52:30,319 for all our 1328 00:52:33,349 --> 00:52:32,240 the editor australian skeptics magazine 1329 00:52:34,470 --> 00:52:33,359 the editor 1330 00:52:36,630 --> 00:52:34,480 yeah it's a new one didn't you hear 1331 00:52:42,549 --> 00:52:36,640 about that one 1332 00:52:42,559 --> 00:52:57,910 hi hi hi 1333 00:52:57,920 --> 00:53:07,589 what did that say 1334 00:53:12,870 --> 00:53:10,790 he took one of his shoes off bang oh he 1335 00:53:19,830 --> 00:53:12,880 must be with another friend 1336 00:53:19,840 --> 00:53:27,109 [Music] 1337 00:53:30,230 --> 00:53:29,430 weren't they yeah yeah you can see the 1338 00:53:33,950 --> 00:53:30,240 telegoons